This is a full account of a dialogue that took place between:

Khalid Amayreh, mailto:amayreh@p-ol.com ,  a Palestinian,

Asher Shla'in, mailto:ashersh@bezeqint.net ,   an Israeli.

In the present dialogue there is a role to:

Art Braunstein, mailto:artb@netmedia.net.il, a Co-Moderator of IPPEN.

The dialogue started and was conducted under the auspices of IPPEN.

IPPEN: The Israeli-Palestinian Peace Education Network.
The virtual conference forum for academic and professional discussion of peace education.
Sponsored by the Harry S. Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace, The Hebrew University, in cooperation with the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information -- IPCRI.

This document is compiled by Asher, who takes responsibility for its order and appearance.

>------- Art's 1st message,    of October 31, 2000, 9:33 AM  -------

Subject:   peace education away from  school ?

Dear IPPEN Members:

I've just heard from one of the Israeli reporters (that I'm in contact with for my hi-tech PR work) that some Palestinian families are keeping their children out of school because Tanzim Operatives are recruiting children from the schools to man (child?) the violent demonstrations.

The reporter is reliable but his sources may not be.!!

Is there any confirmation of this report ?

Art

>------- Khalid's 1st  message,    of October 31, 2000, 11:14 AM   -------

----------Response to Art --------------------

 Re: ippen IPPEN peace education away from school  ?

  As far as I know this is nonsense, Palestinians are not keeping their kids out of school. In some cases, they do lest the kids be killed by trigger-happy Israeli soldiers and settlers.
In H-2 Hebron, schools are closed because of the enduring curfew, now in entering its second consecutive month. As you know, settlers there act very much like the Gestapo once did.  

Fatah doesn't need to recruit kids to throw stones on Israeli occupation soldiers as much as Jews didn't need anybody to incite them against the Nazis, their tormentors and exterminators.  

Be assured that Palestinian kids and youngsters have feelings... just like other human beings... they watch television and ask questions... and you know kids think they can change the world... hence, they just go to the "flash points" where Jewish snipers on rooftops fire (at) not on or toward but (at) their tender heads... and the result is spilt brains in the streets.  

"Jews are like all underdogs, when they get on the top, they become as savage and merciless toward their victims, as their former oppressors treated them when they were underneath."
Harry Truman (in Harry Truman, by Margarette Truman).  

Khalid Amayreh  

>--------  Art's  2nd message,    of October 31, 2000 10:39 AM  --------

>>Re:   peace education away from  school ?

Thank you Khalid !!

>--------  Asher's 1st Message,   of November 02, 2000, 2:08 PM  --------

Re: peace education away from school ?

Oh, Khalid. It is not easy for me to write to you.

When I read your message to IPPEN, my first inner reaction was "well, it shows that he is one of those who hate and manipulate" with the urge to discard it as another example of what can make one despair of real peace.  What grieved me more was Art's brief response of "Thank you Khalid" which sounded as if Art got a satisfactory answer to his question. In fact, Art also forwarded the whole exchange as it is to IPPEN members.

On the other hand, the concern expressed by Nedal and Art is fresh in my memory, and I also understand that you are an IPPEN member yourself. I concluded that your message was sent as part of the necessary dialogue that must take place, and therefore it deserves a proper response, which I am trying to offer. So -

You Wrote (YR): "...Palestinians are not keeping their kids out of school. In some cases, they do lest the kids be killed by trigger-happy Israeli soldiers and settlers."

My Response (MR): You agree in fact that Palestinians keep their children out of school lest they will end ant a place where they might be killed by someone who pulls a trigger.  You claim that those who shoot are happy to do so. Well I did not search the heart of any of them to see how happy he was at the event. My acquaintance with my people leads me to believe that at least a great majority if those who find themselves involved in shooting situation regret it a lot, especially when children are involved.  On the other end, from what I learn from the current events, as it is reflected in the media, including clear pictures, that Palestinians are ready to engage in shooting, having other people's children near them (not to say something worse).

(YR): "As you know, settlers there act very much like the Gestapo once did."

(MR): The comparison to the Gestapo (that is to the Nazi secret state police) is quite weird, but I understand it as an expression of great hate.   I know that, not like many other settlers, the settlers within Hebron do not maintain proper relations with their Palestinian neighbors, and your testimony as a Hebronian to that respect could be valuable, if you did not lose credibility by using that biting expressions.

(YR): "Fatah doesn't need to recruit kids to throw stones on Israeli occupation soldiers as much as Jews didn't need anybody to incite them against the Nazis, their tormentors and exterminators".

(MR): What I hear here, is your opinion that it is proper for children to throw stones on occupation soldiers. This does not prove that children were not recruited for this practice. I for one can't imagine that a wave of stone-throwing rises and keeps going without active incitement. My belief is that the presence of children in the front line serves political aims of some people that might bring it about.

The information brought by Art about "some Palestinian families" needs a better research as for its truth.  The simplest way to do so is to ask for more details from the reporter quoted by Art.   Again, a comparison of the Israeli soldiers to Nazi tormentors and exterminators is very far fetched (to say the least) and shows your feelings, which I try my best to contain. The dialogue does not profit from such talk.

(YR): "...you know kids think they can change the world... hence, they just go to the "flash points" where Jewish snipers on rooftops fire (at) not on or toward but (at) their tender heads... and the result is spilt brains in the streets".

(MR): This is touching. I sense your pain here. Still I can't believe that any soldier aims at the head of a child.   Maybe there were split children brains - and I want to know all about it - but this is a tragic result of the situation.    You see, Khalid, one has to prove a lot in order to conclude that Jews are cruel murderers.  I can't ignore a series of facts that show Palestinians in such a role. I don't elaborate here, but I might do so on another occasion.

You Quote: "Jews are like all underdogs, when they get on the top, they become as savage and merciless toward their victims, as their former oppressors treated them when they were underneath." Harry Truman (in Harry Truman, by Margarette Truman).

(MR): I must say I can't believe that Margaret Truman is telling the truth here, but anyway, general defamatory quotations can be brought by each side but is of no avail.

Can you continue the dialogue from here?

With great respect,

Asher Shla'in

>---------  Khalid's 2nd Message,   of November 02, 2000, 5:42 PM -------

-----------    To  Asher   -----------------------

Re: peace education away from school ?

Hi Asher, When I said what I said I knew what I was saying, and be assured I didn't feel I was making any exaggeration. Certainly, I don't feel now that what I said or wrote was an overstatement. I'm not a kid, and I think twice before I say or do anything.

The killing and maiming of so many children and youngsters is a sound proof that the soldiers acted in a trigger-happy manner. Asher, One has to be intellectually honest...!!

The settlers were (are) indeed,  behaving like Gestapo. The killing of Nasasreh and the farmer from Beit Furik suggest they the perpetrators were vile criminals.

In Hebron, the settlers re-enacted lately several Kristallnachts against Palestinians. What do you call this? Do I have to remind you of what the Gush Emunim rabbis teach their yesheva students?

Not only their actions are gruesome and Satanic, but also their ideology. Just read the books of Abraham Cook and his son.

I can understand your defensive reflexes, they are "normal," because every oppressive group needs to rationalize and justify its oppression of another people. Hence, Palestinian children ought to be killed and maimed...so that the Jewish people wouldn't face another holocaust! doesn't it all come down to this in the final analysis...So, the Palestinian people must be eradicated in order to give meaning to the Jewish mantra of "never again"!

You don't know me Asher.

I believe in Arab-Jewish coexistence, and I hate anti-Semitism. I host Jews in my own home,   and strongly  believe in Peace. But I'm against the killing of innocent people, I'm against injustice and oppression.

The first of the ten commandments says "don't kill" but your people interprets it to mean "don't kill a Jew" but "the best of the goyem ...kill'em"

Of course, I welcome dialogue,  this is what I have been at for the last 33 years.

Khalid Amayreh

>--------  Asher's 2nd message,   of November 02, 2000, 10:31 PM  -----

Hi Khalid.

As you will see soon, I still can't agree with you.   Yet I am glad at your choice to conduct this dialogue with me. I am ready to continue the dialogue, although I was embarrassed to find that very meaningful parts of my message which you presented under the heading "you wrote", were deleted. At this stage, I don't want to draw conclusions from that.

I find that both of us feel much involvement, and take personal responsibility for our activities.   Although we address each other personally, this is not a private matter between Khalid and Asher.  We met on a public stage, and I feel free to share the contents of our discourse with other involved people - but I intend to be fair as far as presenting the other side's arguments is concerned.

Let me now respond to your message in the same method that I did with your former one.  If you find this uncomfortable in any way, please let me know.

You Wrote (YR): "The killing and maiming of so many children and youngsters is a sound proof that the soldiers acted in a trigger-happy manner. Asher, One has to be intellectually honest...!!"

My Response (MR): Of course I don't like my honesty (intellectual or else) being questioned, but I won't let that vulnerability of mine interfere with dialogue. The killing and maiming of children does not reflect the state of mind of those who fired at them. I assume that they thought they needed to fire because the situation and their duty called for it. From my acquaintance with the population that mans our army I know that the typical soldier would regret any wounded child.   It may be possible that here and there someone let his anger at the provocation overcome him, and he fired improperly - the human nature allows for such behavior as many Palestinians know for themselves - but the good majority regrets such situation. 

Any dead or wounded child, Palestinian or Israeli is a grave disaster. Yet, if you compare honestly the number of children (and for that matter adult) casualties, to the number of those who participate in violent activities, you can conclude that trigger-happiness is not present, at least in great majority of the clashes.

(YR): "The settlers were (are) indeed, behaving like Gestapo. The killing of Nasasreh and the farmer from Beit Furik suggest they the perpetrators were vile criminals."

(MR): I do not claim that settlers cannot be criminals.  Events of manslaughter should be investigated for criminality.   Yet as far as I know, most settlers do not have a criminal state of mind, but seek good relations with their neighbors. Such settlers regret the event that cost the life of the Beit Furik farmer. I understand that you do not realize it because the relations in Hebron are quite bad.   

Your insistence to mention "Gestapo" at this connection might suggest that for you this is a derogatory word, quite effective in offending Jews.

(YR): "In Hebron, the settlers re-enacted lately several Kristallnachts against Palestinians. What do you call this?"

(MR): I would not use the historic allusion to Kristallnachts, but I understand that you are hurt.  I find it bearable that you use an irritating word to convey what you say my fellow Jews do to you.

(YR):  "Do I have to remind you of what the Gush Emunim rabbis teach their yesheva students?  Not only their actions are gruesome and Satanic, but also their ideology.  Just read the books of Abraham Cook and his son".

(MR): Please, tell me about it. As far as I know, their opinions are in contrast with your national and political views, but I cannot recall anything "Satanic" in their teachings.   Too bad I cannot say the same about the teachings of some religious Moslem leaders.

(YR):  "I can understand your defensive reflexes, they are "normal," because every oppressive group needs to rationalize and justify its oppression of another people. Hence, Palestinian children ought to be killed and maimed...so that the Jewish people wouldn't face another holocaust! Doesn't it all come down to this in the final analysis...So, the Palestinian people must be eradicated in order to give meaning to the Jewish mantra of "never again"!"

(MR):  In the course of dialogue we tend to analyze the other side's psychology, I can bear it, because sometimes I do the same, but I am more interested in truth and reconciliation rather than in rationalization.

As I see it Palestinian children "ought" to be killed these day in order to advance the political achievements of a cruel Palestinian leadership.

Yes, there is such slogan of "never again", and yes, it is raised when a neighbor culture educates its children to hate, to kill, to look on us as non-human. Look of what is taught in your schools, what is preached in your Mosques!  We refuse to deserve death punishment for just insisting on living on this Land.

(YR):  "You don't know me Asher.    I believe in Arab-Jewish coexistence, and I hate anti-Semitism. I host Jews in my own home, and strongly believe in Peace. But I'm against the killing of innocent people, I'm against injustice and oppression.

(MR):  You don't know me either. In order that you know me better, I attach here a story that I wrote, one that I distribute to many people.  I can't guess whether this story will puzzle you or enrage you, but I made it my business to tell it.       Like you I'm against injustice, oppression, and killing of innocent people.   I can imagine that you did not host many Jews of my kind.    May be they were more inclined politically to support you views.    What I say is what seems to me most truthful and right.

(YR):  "The first of the ten commandments says "don't kill" but your people interprets it to mean "don't kill a Jew" but "the best of the goyem  ...kill'em"

(MR):  Yes, there is such single opinion in an old scripture, but it can't be considered as the way of my people.   You would not agree that each saying of the Hamas be pointed out as your people's attitude.

Here ends my response. Writing it involved quite an effort, but I care.

You are fortunate to believe in peace.   I can only strive for it.

I wish you good life and peace of mind,

Asher

>--------  Khalid's 3rd message,   of November 10, 2000, 3:53 PM  -------

-----------    To:  Asher  -----------       Cc:   Art     -----------

Subject: Response to Asher Shla'in

10 November
Dear friend(s):

I am quite dismayed, to put mildly, by the ostensible inability (and unwillingness) of our Jewish friends to understand and fully grasp the ghoulish reality the Palestinians are facing. Indeed, the facts I see on the ground everyday transcend reality, so much so that arguing about what is happening seems futile, even irrelevant.

Asher! greeting.

1-You said you didn't search the heart of any of them (Israeli soldiers) to see how happy they were (when they pull the trigger and kill Palestinian children).

I reiterate with deep conviction that the soldiers are trigger-happy. According to the latest Amnesty International report, virtually all of killings of Palestinian children by IDF soldiers happened in circumstances that posed no real threat or risk to the safety of the soldiers. This sounds rational, since no Israeli soldier has been killed by stones hurled (toward) heavily-protected soldiers outposts.

Moreover, the fact that the bulk of wounds sustained by children were in the upper part of the body shows that the soldiers were shooting to kill and maim as many children as possible. Finally, some Palestinian children were killed while returning home from school, like the kid, Jaroushi, of Aida refugee camp near Bethlehem.

I fail pained and disturbed that Israelis of presumed good will and rectitude resort to the old tactic of "blaming the victim." We had an intifada that lasted for over five years, and we didn't witness this kind of vindictive and free killing with malice aforethought.

Moreover, the Palestinians are a people under occupation, a people who have been betrayed by seven years of pseudo-peace. So what do you expect them to do. I had been warning that this would happen, I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.

2- You said the soldiers who kill children regret their actions. what difference does it make? This kind of argument is aimed at seeking extenuating circumstances for murder..., it is morally unacceptable, though it might be politically right for some Israelis.

Moreover, the Palestinians are a people under occupation, a people who have been betrayed by seven years of pseudo-peace. So what do you expect them to do. I had been warning that this would happen, I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.

More to the point, we shouldn't escape the (cardinal fact) that all this is taking place in the occupied territories, not in Israel. No country in the world including the United States, the Israeli organ grinder's ultimate monkey, recognizes this occupation.

3- Analogy with the Gestapo. I believe that the way (Many) settlers have been acting lately vindicates the comparison. I recommend that you go to Beit Furik near Nablus and Um Saffa near Ramallah and try to ascertain the veracity or mendacity of my argument. I would accept your judgment.

Besides, there are many respectable Israelis who on several occasions described the settlers as "Nazi Jews" or "Hitler's youth."

Yes, of course, we all hate evil and oppression and murder, and it is only natural to use appropriate labels to described murderers and evil-doers. I remember that the New York Times, an effectively Jewish paper, once labeled the late Egyptian President Gamal Abdul Nasser "Hitler of the Nile," and Yasser Arafat is occasionally referred to as "Adolph Arafat."

Now, let us be frank, aren't some Jews capable of behaving like Nazis? The answer is yes, every people are capable of behaving like the Nazis did.

4- the presence of children in the front lines! well the shooting takes place in the heart of Palestinian cities, in Hebron, in Bethlehem, in Tulkarm, and In Gaza. So where are the children supposed to go. It is the soldiers who have no business being there, not the children. The children are in their own cities, their own neighborhoods, they are on their own turf. So, PLEASE don't blame the victim!

5-...the killing and maiming doesn't reflect the state of mind of the perpetrators:

Then it is the Palestinian children's heads that are to blame for colliding with the soldiers' bullets!!!

6- "I assume that they thought they needed to fire because the situation and their duty called for it."

What situation? What duty? Killing children (or adults) who don't pose a threat to a soldier's life is sheer murder---pure and simple, nothing can justify this diabolical act. Besides, a soldier, normally a sharpshooter, could fire at their feet, not at their heads and hearts (80% of the wounds are in the upper parts of the body).

6-Gush Emunim: Gush Emunim's teachings are much more than just another ideology. They have a genocidal ideology. For example, they believe that through massive killings of Palestinians and goyem can they induce the coming of the redeemer!!

7- "but I'm more interested in truth and reconciliation.."

You have me on your right side.

8-The Palestinian leadership is corrupt and despotic and, yes cruel.

But it is the Israeli leadership that is indulging the slaughter business...and everybody in Israel is silent, including the morally-deaf so-called "peace camp."

9- In fact I hosted people from the three political trends in Israel (the secularist, the national religious, and the haredi camps) you would be surprised if I told you their names, but I can't do it without their permission.

Let us work and hope for better days

with respect  Khalid Amayreh, 

journalist, Hebron.

>--------  Asher's 3rd message,    of November 12, 2000, 4:30 AM  ---------

-----------  To: Khalid    --------------    Cc:   Art   ----------

Subject: Dialogue continues

It is good to hear from you, Khalid.

I was bothered by the idea that you might let go of our dialogue, and I'm glad you didn't.
I guess I am aware of your terrible reality, and I care for you, although I am sure I can't grasp it in full, not because I am Israeli, but just because I am not in it as you are.
I see our discourse less as 'argument' and more as sharing.
I am following also your dialogue with R. Israeli - but I leave that one to be conducted by you two, each in his particular views and style, and I stick to ours - in my style, and share with you what comes to my mind when I read what you kindly agree to share with me.
Your late discourse with Art gets some readymade response from the paper I wrote which was sent over the net, but which I sent to you first. By the way, how do you feel about it?
It is a good thing that you numbered you points, which helps me to refer to each of them one by one, using your number, without needing to repeat what you wrote.

1 - I take it from you that the Amnesty International report says what you say, although the fact that soldiers were not killed by stones is not a proof that the situation did not require shooting. We on this side hear about Palestinian gunmen (police, Tanzim or else) firing on Israelis beside or even behind those unfortunate kids. I believe that this was the case with the Al Dura boy (the one who died in his father's arms) if at all it was an Israeli fire.
Moreover, I for one do not accept the criterion that a justified shooting is only for saving the life of the shooter. The duty of the soldiers is to protect their country rather than protect themselves - sometimes at the cost of their own lives. By the way, would you say that all the lethal shots fired by Palestinians happened just under risk to the life of Palestinians? and if not so, where are more trigger-happy people? Now I recall attempts at blowing-up buses carrying children (let's say settler kids) - there, no heart-searching is needed!
I do not believe that shots that killed children were from guns of snipers. as far as I understand, snipers are occupied to shut up sources of fire and not demonstrators. Regular soldiers are not so good at aiming, and if the rioters are crowded enough, aiming at somebody's legs can easily end up at somebody's upper part. You must have heard about "stray fire" which is present in battle areas, where a wandering bullet hits some innocent person even far away.
Please do not see my words as insensitive; the whole situation is painful and tragic; I only pay my dues to clarity on points that you raise.
This is not a tactic of "blaming the victim". Yes there are victims here, on both sides, and the blame in my opinion is on those who initiated the violence for political (or if you prefer "national") gain.

2 - My assumption, that typical soldiers who find themselves in killing situation regret what they think they have to do, was not expressed to "extenuate circumstances for murder", but in reference to the image of trigger-happy, offered by you. No, they were not happy. Philosophically, any killing of human being can be considered as "murder" but in our hard world we must graduate the different cases. Applying even the most extenuating classifications, much of the Palestinian deeds nowadays must be considered murderous, with full intent to kill.
I understand that you defend the Palestinian behavior on grounds of the occupation. Well, I myself am very unhappy about our occupation regime, especially at the time before the original Intifada. On the other hand, I think that the present Palestinian violence is not spontaneous but well-planned from a political center. And yes, I saw it coming too, because the pattern seems to me: to receive what is given in negotiations, and when the process is stuck - to find an excuse for violence, even if most victims are from one's own people and kids.
In my view, the occupation can end only in peace. It is inconceivable that we let go of control, when enmity prevails. The current events are not so encouraging in this respect. To many Israelis the Oslo process seemed to lead to the desired peace. A large part of those feel now disillusioned. I am not one of those. I for one think that the worst wrong we did to the Palestinians was to bring over them Arafat, his troops, his corruption, his hate, his inner terror, his murderous political tactics.
On this I am ready to apologize. I hope you can forgive us for this when you will understand in the future what we did to you (and to ourselves) for the sake of "separation".

3 - I do not deny criminal activities done by at least some settlers. I hope more of those will be brought to justice. The comparison to Gestapo, which is a police organ is even technically wrong - but I can accept it as a way to express your anger.
I am not impressed by "respectable" Israelis of a certain camp, who allow themselves to use most defamatory expressions in inner disputes.
It is no use to call Israel's enemies in the middle east "Hitlers", although there are some who make use of Nazi resources.
Of course there are some Jews capable of behaving like Nazis. I agree that in many peoples, including our own ones, there are such individuals and even groups.

4 - I can hardly respond to that one. I already understood your claim that the children acted within their rights when they took part in violent riots. But one has to be reasonable. what do you expect, that each soldier, when he sees a demonstrator, will take to his heels and leave his post?

5 - On this one I remain speechless...

6 - My rather lengthy response to point no. 1, includes reference to the present point.

6B - Gush Emunim: As far as I know, what you say about their ideology is completely mistaken. I guess someone misled you about it. I suggest that you look for evidence for you contentions, and if you find such - please please forward it to me.

7 - That is a solid agreed point.

8 - I regret the word "indulging" as much is done to spare human life, even in the cost of being less military-effective. The word "slaughter" should be reserved to special cases, like the killing of Hebron Jews in 1929, or the Kafr Kasem murder, or Sabra and Shatila - and it is not a business for the Israeli leadership.
By the way, though I strive for peace, I do not see myself as a part of what is called the "peace camp" and is mostly a separation camp.

9 - Your point is taken, I believe you without proofs. By the way, two of the three trends you mentioned are on the religious range rather than the political one. I belong to no one of the three.

Forgive me if I was too long and tiring - I do it all to serve understanding, and I hope to hear from you soon.

I do believe in better days to come.

Asher Shla'in

>--------- Khalid's 4th message,   of November 12, 2000, 5:00 PM -------

------------    To: Asher     ------------    To:    Art    ----------

Subject: No to situational ethics

Shalom Asher:

It is clear that our both ways of thinking and looking at things are different. I'm a moralist and I reject situational ethics. You, on the other hand, seem to believe in situational ethics and pragmatism. You also seem to believe that "whatever is politically-correct must also be morally acceptable."

In your quest to justify the actions of the Israeli army against Palestinians, in their own land, in their own cities, in their own streets, you seem to ignore the fact that we (Palestinians) are morally, politically, and humanly required to rise up against the occupying army.

What does one do in the face of his grave-diggers, give roses? Once, I remember, the Fatah people gave olive branches to IDF soldiers, and what was the result?...Asher..."those to whom evil is done, do evil in return.."

Hence, you should refrain from placing the tormented and the tormentor, the aggressor and the victim on the same par. You just can't equate a Palestinian resistance of the Israeli occupation army with the slow-motion genocide that is being perpetrated against our people?

I'm not saying that the soldiers have no right to return fire!!! I'm saying they have no right in being where they are in the first place. They have to go.

The Jewish underground rose up against the British, they committed acts of terrorism against them, they blew up the King David hotel, they killed Bernadut....! We are doing virtually the same thing against what we and the rest of the world see as an occupying power.

This is the crux of the matter. I hope you realize what I mean.

Finally, I don't want to comment on your remarks about Durra..., we simply have too many Durras now...!

Khalid

>--------  Asher's 4th message,   of November 13, 2000, 2:30 AM  -------

------------------      To:   Khalid ;    Art      --------------

Subject: All ethics are situational

A-salam Aleikum ya Khalid:

"Politically-correct" is one idea that I hold in contempt. Moral judgment should not be based on political doctrine, but rather on the voice of the heart. I am aware that different hearts can produce different judgments, and might be biased by situation.
My conclusion from that is not to crown my personal judgment as the absolute justice.
Yes Khalid, in this sense I am a pragmatist. A pragmatic approach is the only way to reconciliation. Announcing one's judgment and expecting everybody to comply seems to be futile, even if you are an authorized moralist.
I am a moralist in my way, and I really wonder how can we pass any ethical judgment without considering the situation. The same activity can be moral in one situation and immoral in another. You too bring situational facts to justify your moral argument.

Maybe one can find in my writing a justification to actions of the Israeli army, but my aim is to share what I believe is the case. Our army is far from being morally infallible. I condemn much of its behavior during the years of occupation (rather than the occupation itself). What I refer to is the current violence. I find the source of it not with the victims but with the plot to cause one's people to suffer adult and child casualties, in numbers and pictures which will suffice to mobilize international support for one's political aims.

I want to share with you something I hear from fellow Israelis speaking to each other. They say: "when we see the child killed we become sad, but someone there is glad because of what he can make of it". You are entitled to reject that - but it does reflect typical inner Israeli discourse.

You Palestinians are not required to rise against the army now, more than you were three months ago. Don't you see that you are manipulated, as you were during the "tunnel crisis" which was also falsely connected with Al-Aksa, and served political aims at the price of lives?

The Israeli public opinion had been on the path of recognizing the rights of Palestinians to independence (by the way, in a process that I oppose) under the assumption that real peace is coming. The last events - much to the regret of the Israeli present government - undermined this trend, because it showed the extent of hatred and de-legitimization of Israel in what seems the prevailing Palestinian spirit. One might argue this conclusion, but it is there.
I am not sorry for the failure of the Oslo process; I regret only the terrible cost in suffering and lives paid now by everybody, especially by you.

Although both sides suffer, I am far from equating their respective situations. This not as you see it because you are in a superior moral position - I think you are not - but because your side is managed currently in a historically disastrous direction. The Jewish side made its main historical mistakes earlier.

This is an old tragedy, soaked with much shortsightedness, heartlessness and crimes.
The account is two-sided. I know each side tends to evaluate the balance as a credit to itself - but this is good only to strengthen one's camp from within against the other; it is not good for the promotion of peace.

It seems that your basic premise is that we have no right to be where we are, and therefore we are outlawed, and any attempt to defend ourselves is sheet murder. If so, why not in Haifa, Yaffa, Abu Ghush, The Galilee?

I believe that our existence together should be the premise.
I pray that we will be able to find the proper leaders that will show the way for real partnership.

Ma'a al-salame,

Asher

>--------  Khalid's 5th message,   of November 13, 2000, 10:01 AM  -------

-------     To: Asher --------     Cc:   Art    ---------------
Re: a challenge from Khalid Amayreh

Shalom Asher:

I've carefully read your latest correspondence, as I always do.

I think our respective value-systems are different; I take right and wrong as absolute values, I believe killing innocent people is wrong, I believe dominating and tormenting another people is wrong.

I know that some people are tempted to manipulate every shred of "factual and theoretical evidence" to support a basically-unjust stance. I believe this is wrong. I could do the same, but I believe that one should be committed to truth and justice. The goal of my messages is not to score points here and there, the goal is to establish truth and to promote justice and fight evil.

Unfortunately, you effectively repeated what Golda Meir once said "we may forgive the Arabs for killing our children, but we'll never forgive them for making us kill their children!!" This tactic of "blaming-the-victim" is nefarious. I can't imagine even one justification for killing an innocent human, Jew or gentile.

In the Qur'an, the killing of an innocent human is equated with the killing of all humanity....You also have something similar in the Torah, although the rabbis eventually gave it an oblique interpretation.

I am appalled by your tacit support for the continuation of Israeli military occupation of the Palestinian people. Asher: There is no good occupation, all occupation (s) are evil...and dignified humans are morally, humanly and politically mandated to rise up against it.

Your statement to that effect (that we are not required to rise up against the occupation) suggests that you harbor a domineering mentality, and believe that you and your army should continue to ride herd on us.....

No, we are not going to be an exception, we must resist. THE VICTIMS CANNOT AFFORD NOT TO RESIST, pure and simple.

According to Josephus' "the Jewish War," the Jews committed a collective suicide, by killing their own children and brothers, rather than surrender to the Romans!

So, how come you want us to surrender and wait for "Jewish magnanimity." This will never happen.

Frankly, I see your rather narrow, textual concentration on the ongoing uprising as tendentious and evasive.

The problem didn't start on 28 September after all, as the situation that preceded the uprising was already incendiary. There was lots of frozen rage, due to Israel's systematic efforts to impose a humiliating "deal" on Arafat, which his people would never accept. your government, backed by its puppet in the White House, wanted to cajole Arafat into accepting a euphemistic capitulation, namely a settlement that would reflect Israel's hegemony and superior power, while utterly ignoring international law and human rights. Unfortunately, you seem to favor imposing a settlement as such.

You said Israelis are sad seeing Palestinians being killed by Israeli soldiers. Big deal for the crocodile tears!

Any murdering group could make this argument to justify its evil deed! Indeed, voicing this argument amounts to insulting people's intelligence....It is like saying, "I'm going to kill you for your own sake...!!"

Shas demonstrators hurled stones at the police, and the police didn't shoot at them. Why are they shooting at Arabs and killing them, almost nonchalantly?... the reason is simply because Arabs are not Jews!!...they are not members of the tribe! I'm a million per cent sure that it all comes down to this ...because we are not Jews.....and our lives are expendable!

Asher: motherhood and fatherhood are an instinctive feeling which both humans and animals share. No mother, no father, will send her/his child to death..., this cardinal mendacity, this big lie that Palestinians hate their children and therefore send them to be killed ( as highlighted by the Jewish media in the US) resembles the "Blood Libel" from which the Jews suffered so much in Central and Eastern Europe.

I never said you have no right to be here. It is you who are effectively saying we have no right to be here "free and equal."

I challenge you and all Israelis to accept a civil state in all of Palestine (Israel and "territories") where Jews and Arabs are treated equally like in the US, France, England!!....and for the sake of this, I will just forget about the occupation and the Palestinian state?

With respect

Khalid Amayreh

>---------  Asher's 5th message,   of November 14, 2000, 1:44 AM -------

---------    To:   Khalid     ------------     Cc:   Art    ---------

Re: a challenge from Khalid Amayreh 

 Dear Khalid, you do keep me busy! In the following days I'll have to slow it down, because writing to you is real work, and each message takes me hours.

But I still thank you. Please keep this in mind when you see me trying to meet your challenges in a less than agreeable words.

Each person is entitled to his/her inner value-system. I for one try to avoid slogans like "I take right and wrong as absolute values", which do not add to real clarity. I know no one who believes that "killing innocent people" and "dominating and tormenting another people" is right. I do not intend to refer to an argument phrased in such terms in the future. If this is your challenge - it will remain unmet.

Summing up the manner in which each of us conducts our dialogue up to the present, I do see a clear difference between our respective ways. I have made an effort to respond openly to any significant point raised by you, even when it caused me to admit faults of "my side". You, on the other hand, have indulged in selective reference, ignoring real challenges, sometimes quoting me off the context, and repeating points to which I had already referred, as if they are brand new. I do not dispute your right to respond in the way you choose; maybe you need to do what you do, but I am using my right to change my way to suit these conditions. From now on, I shall try not to repeat points which I have already raised, even if that involves leaving your argument unanswered, especially when my previous response have been ignored. Yet I shall remain as "committed to truth and justice" as I did until now.

Life experience shows me that much (though by no means all) of what happens to people in their own responsibility. On the other hand I am very thrifty in the usage of "blame", which adds the meaning of "deserving punishment". Therefore it is wrong to repeatedly say that I "blame the victims". Most victims are hurt not as a punishment, not because they "deserved" it, but as a result of the situation that either they or someone else put them into. Yes! Situation! Not as an ethical criterion but as hard reality.
I still find some place for blame. I blame the cynical, sly and foolish leaders who would not spare the life and wellbeing of their own people and the children of other parents, to promote their politics. Mind you: after over a hundred dead - once death is inflicted upon one of the organizers - then they announce that a revenge is due...

Khalid, I saw on TV this night, photoed from the Palestinian side, how children are hurling stones openly, while adults with rifles rush behind them and fire again and again from behind a safe cover. I guess it was not their own children...
Maybe it is beyond your power to fight such evils. I respect that - and I see it as a token of great appreciation that you demand from the Israelis completely different moral standards.

I see no evidence that Rabbis allow killing of innocent humans. On the other hand, the blood of Jews is nowadays outlawed by quite a few Moslem leaders. I guess you have your reasons not to fight that - but please consider it before attaching labels like "murdering group" to the Israeli side. Is not that a fact, that any Israeli caught in unlawful killing of a Palestinian is brought to justice, while many Palestinians who indulged in mass killings of unarmed Jews are praised as heroes? Where are your "absolute values", Khalid?

I guess you have read my story document, and I am ready to accept your silence about it. On that background I need to share my opinion, that a unified state, which in my view is the finest solution to our situation, cannot be brought about by ways of violence, in spirit of hatred and blame - but by much empathy, patience, openness and building of real mutual trust. If our leaders are not capable of that - let us create respective alternative leaderships.

It is 1:40 AM, and I close my message here.

Let me just add that I have a great respect towards you, because like me you are willing to contribute efforts for public goals.

Your rival and friend,

Asher

>--------  Art's 3rd message,   of November 16, 2000, 12:21 PM -------

------  To: Khalid; Asher  -----   Cc: Nedal Jayousi; Ruth Firer -----
Subject: IPPEN getting the main points across with impact

Dear Khalid and Asher:

We've very much appreciated your exchange of views and have  posted them to the entire Group as you intended. Thank you for  sharing.

There is a problem however with the ability and desire of most  members to devote the time and energy to opening and reading  very long messages (e.g. on the average, over 10k !!!). If we were to continue with the same volume per message, it would reduce membership attention to IPPEN generally.

Therefore a Request: Please, limit your messages themselves to a  summary of the essential points in 2-3 paragraphs of modest  proportions. If you wish to expand on these points with examples  etc., please put such text as a Word doc attachment. If you adopt  this approach, I'm sure you will fine that your essential points will  be sharper, reaching more people with your important comments. An enticing Subject line also helps.

Please, therefore, do try each of your hands at doing a summary of  your last message.
Thank you in advance.

Art

>---------  Asher's 6th message,   of November 19, 2000, 10:51 AM -----

--------  To:  Art; Khalid -----   Cc: Nedal Jayousi; Ruth Firer  ------

Subject: IPPEN getting the main points across with impact

Dear Art,

Thank you for your message and your suggestion.

I would like to voice few comments and than make a suggestion of my own.

# The number of the message Khalid and I have already exchanged within our main dialogue is 10 (including Khalid's 1st message which was not sent tome but caused my first response, not counting Art's 2 messages that started it all). As far as I perceive, you have kindly posted to the entire Group 6 of them plus 1 response of mine (on one-state issue) which was not a part of the aforesaid exchange.
# I appreciate the reasons why you cannot allow the space for such a volume of e-mail.
# I, for one, find it difficult to summarize the messages already composed and sent. I think that the emphasis on "essential points", which is useful normally, misses the main achievements of this dialogue, which lie in the way and style that characterizes our discourse.
# The dialogue has reached a stage in which the main arguments had been voiced, so that in some issues we start to reproduce the same point in new contexts. Yet, I see a considerable EDUCATIONAL value in the spirit in which things are said, and that requires some leave to "speak from one's heart".
# However, your point Art is well taken. I am ready to accept that a Word doc is a better medium for lengthy messages.

In view of all that, I suggest as follows:

1. Let us bring the present dialogue to an end. As the last message has been issued by me, I offer that Khalid will give his last response, knowing that I shall not continue.

2. After that, I take it on me to compile the whole dialogue into one Word doc, changing nothing of the original texts. I think the size of that document will be about 80 KB.

3. I shall put that document at your disposal, to do with it what you will find fit at that time.

I would like to know what you think about my suggestion.

Khalid! would you accept this arrangement?

yours in the service of a good cause,

Asher
 
>--------  Khalid's 6th message,   of November 19, 2000, 12:25 PM ------

-------------   To: Asher   -------------    

Re: IPPEN getting the main points across with impact

19 November
Hello Asher:

Art may go ahead in analyzing and synthesizing the messages, and I'll be happy to answer any question as to what I meant when I wrote what I wrote.

My thanks go to everybody on this list

Khalid Amayreh

>--------- Asher's 7th message,   of November 19, 2000, 1:09 PM ------

-----------    To:   Khalid   -------------     Cc:   Art  --------

Re: More on IPPEN getting the main points across

Hi Khalid.

I think I quite understood what you meant, even when I disagreed.
So in my view, it is not about clarifying by questions but about conducting a dialogue (of which the present exchange is not a part).

I expected you to respond to my message of Nov. 14th, AM. I suggested that your response will close the series that comprised the dialogue. Than the whole discourse can serve as an example for the possibility of high-quality dialogue in conditions of much pain and bitterness.

I hope we two can remain friends, and maybe engage in new exchanges in the future.

Apart from your (closing) response to the Nov. 14th, I look forward to Art's answer.

Asher Shla'in

>------  Khalid's 7th message,   of November 19, 2000, 7:55 PM  ------

-------------  To: Asher   -------------   Cc:   Art    -------  

Subject: Final Response to Asher's message on 14 November

19 November:

We, indeed, have different value systems, and, Yes, we are both entitled to our respective value systems.

However, I don't believe that we should go too far in this matter, because, then, we would end up arguing that "one man's evil" is "another man's charity and "one man's morality is another man's immorality."

I shall respond to your message point by point: -

* If our dialogue is to evade or avoid discussing the nightmare of the occupation, then it is going to be fruitless and worthless. The occupation is the "cause", it is not the "effect", peace is absent because the occupation is present, both can't coexist. The occupation is tormenting people and killing them. This is not fiction or propaganda. It is fact, and facts sometimes transcend reality.

*  I agree with you that the Palestinian leadership is callous towards the Palestinian people, and I'm no fan of Yasser Arafat.

However, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Israel is always the original sin.

*  Regarding stone-hurling children and our inability to fight such an "evil". Well, sending children to throw stones at Israeli occupation soldiers to get killed, presuming that what you said in this regard is true, may well be an evil act, but the real diabolical act is killing them and targeting the upper parts of their bodies... with lethal Dum-Dum bullets. That is the real evil!

Moreover, there are always alternative ways and means to disperse demonstrators, there are water cannons, there are pepper cannons, there are glue-cannons, there are non-lethal rubber bullets...besides the soldiers can always target the lower parts of the body. Unfortunately, the inescapable conclusion is that the soldiers are out there to shed blood, straight and simple...."born to kill"!!

* Rabbis do issue religious edicts permitting the killing of innocent "goyem" especially during the time of war...(they consider the current situation a state of war with the goyem). The rabbis base their edicts on such Jewish theological references as "Shulhan Ha'roukh," "Hesronot Shas," and other relevant Talmudic injunctions.

On the other hands, Jews and Judaism enjoy religious and historical legitimacy in Islam. There can be no Islamic edict, from Prophet Muhammad onward, allowing Muslims to kill Jews for being Jews. However, Muslims are called upon to fight their oppressors. In other words, we fight (the correct word is resist) Jews, not for being Jewish, but for tormenting us, killing us, confiscating our land, and expelling us from our homeland. Indeed, one would fight his own brother if he takes over one's home!

* There are hundreds of examples of Jews convicted of murdering innocent Palestinians who were set free. The list is too long. Didn't you read about the two-agorot fines given to IDF officers convicted of massacring Arabs...? Didn't you read Benny Morris's books? How about Yaron degani and Gad Tena who murdered Farid Nasasreh while harvesting his olives in Beit Furik on 17 October? Are they now in jail or set free?

* The term "murdering group" doesn't, of course, encompass all Jews and Israelis. But certainly, everyone supporting the gruesome acts of the Israeli army and settlers falls under that category. This doesn't make him or her criminal, but it does make him or her responsible, though indirectly, for the crimes committed.

Besides, there are lots of murdering groups in the human history. The Nazis were a murdering group, the Americans were in Vietnam, the Iraqis in Kuwait, the French in Algeria, the British in India, and, yes, the Zionists in Palestine.

Yes, Israelis may not be taking part in what is happening, but the killing is carried out in their name, and, I am sure, that the bulk of them support it.

* I never said that a civil state can be brought about by violence. The occupation per se is violence. We are the victims of state-sponsored violence and terrorism, hence we can not be the initiators of violence.

* There can be no empathy, patience, openness, and building of trust with the occupation. Occupation will dry up all feelings of this nature.

In South Africa, they just dismantled apartheid...they didn't wait for "empathy, patience, openness and building of trust" to take effect. In short, you are evading, the crux of the matter.
This is my response.

Sincerely yours,

Khalid Amayreh
Hebron


--------  Asher's 8th message,   of November 19, 2000, 7:13 PM --------

-----------  To:   Khalid   -------   Cc:   Art  ------------
Re: Final Response to Asher's message

Difficult at it sure must be, I stand by my prior commitment not to respond to the contents of your last message, but end our present dialogue here.

Each one is free now to draw one's own conclusions.

Yours,

Asher Shla'in